The data-mined Big Red Nerf

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The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:30 am

If you haven't heard the uproar yet...

TBW reduced to 10 secs with a 10% passive damage boost added to the hunter in the latest data-mined patch notes. This follows directly from the success of BM/Enh Beastcleave in the recent tourney (i.e. they countercomped RMP).

My reasoning says this is a very slight dps buff to BM in PvE raiding.

A substantial nerf to threat generation for tanking.

A huge blowout, remove from the face of the planet, zomg, obliteration of BM as a PvP spec.
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Nordh on Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:11 am

It's not only TBW, but also BW that's nerfed to 10 seconds. =/

A 10% extra damage bonus at all time is rather nice for BM raiding, but it seriously overpowers that single talent point. Can anyone name ANY other talent that not only boosts your damage by 10%, but also makes you immune to pretty much all CC:ing for 10 seconds? Heck, can anyone name a talentpoint that boosts your dps by 10% alone? I think they are going to have to rethink the talent distribution.

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:43 am

TBW and BW together yes, sorry I didn't think to mention it.

The net damage bonus is actually closer to 5% if you add in the decrease in pet dps and the decrease in 10% dps boost time for the hunter. At a 50/50 dps split it may even be flat out nerf, but I think the actual is closer to 60/40.
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Nordh on Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:45 am

The extra damage during BW is still increased. So you get 10% all around bonus, and then 10% extra when it's active. So you're looking at quite a big net increase actually.

Also, your pet is closer to 25-30% of total dps while raiding.

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Ground-DH on Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:04 pm

Gack.

Oh well, maybe Blizz will compensate by buffing tanking specs yet again...

My vote: Get rid of the stupid "pets wants to be behind the mob" and let my pet actually hit the guy instead of constantly moving around and missing attack opportunities.

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:40 am

25-30%?

Wow, okay in that case the net buff will be closer to 5 or 6%. It might be enough to make BM dps theoretically competitive with SV/MM.

Of course it would still destroy the PvP aspect of BM, since GC seems to think hunters use BW defensively or would use it as a trinket in a sap for arenas. But it might have some merit in PvE, and not really have a huge impact on tanking.

In fact they may have to reconsider passive threat generation since this will make the pet/hunter threat balance untenable.
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Kurasu on Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:35 pm

Couple things in the above statement that made me cock an eye in confusion.

Doug wrote:Of course it would still destroy the PvP aspect of BM, since GC seems to think hunters use BW defensively or would use it as a trinket in a sap for arenas.

You mean they don't? *I* always have. Likewise in raids/instances, if I know I'm going to need it. It's extremely useful and flexible, rather than purely 'Massive DPS'. Personally, I'd want to see a shorter CD + shorter duration. But that would be just *slightly* OP in PVP.

In fact they may have to reconsider passive threat generation since this will make the pet/hunter threat balance untenable.

How is this? I mean, my pet can hold threat when used against a *full raid*. And that's without MD. How would this need to be 'untenable' threat balance? I've got a little thing called 'Feign Death' as well, and 'throttle DPS'. Something I learned to do back in TBC where overrunning tanks was possible.

Honestly, while I would love to see passive threat generation or some other way of getting more threat, I *don't* see it as being a necessary thing. It just means hunters need to learn not to go full out on their attacks against whatever enemy their pet is tanking. Rather like warlocks.
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Ground-DH on Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:44 pm

I don't get the problem with TBW. Sure, it makes a hunter unstunnable for a few seconds. Is that unbalancing? I don't think so. It's the "I can stun you till you are dead" capability of rogues and paladins that is unbalanced. Basically, this is the only hunter counter to stun-lock, which *needs* a counterattack or I claim stun-lock to be a game breaker for any hunter in arena and PvP.

As for being a DPS mechanism, give me a break. Ya, a BM hunter can be the top of the damage meter for 10 seconds or so with TBW. However, over the raid, a BM hunter is never going to top the charts unless he is "down-raiding" with undergeared folks.

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:46 pm

The problem that they were solving can be summed up thus: Beast Cleave.

BM/Enh/Pally destroyed PMR control teams at the recent tourney. For this setup to work BW must be used offensively, since it is the typical Cleave approach. Many people saw it as the only viable hunter arena style because kiting is "not fun for the other player".

I agree about the flexibility in Raids and instances, it is the same way I use it, but for top end raiding specialisation is the order of the day, so strictly you should not need to to be flexible at all, just a dps monster. I dislike the idea intensely, but that's how it goes.

I am not so sure about the threat breaking thing, it is not a mechanic I like but you are right in that it is certainly manageable especially in tanking gear. But you know why I want the passive threat generation, not to keep threat over the hunter, but the Raid.
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Kurasu on Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:15 am

To quote Ghostcrawler:

Since the changes seem to be causing confusion, here is the new tooltip.

“Send your pet into a rage causing 50% additional damage for 10 sec (down from 18). While enraged, the beast does not feel pity or remorse or fear and it cannot be stopped unless killed.”

The tooltip doesn’t say this, but it now breaks all forms of CC that a PvP trinket would break (including Cyclone, Sap, etc.).

“Increases all damage you deal by 10% and while your pet is under the effects of Bestial Wrath, you also go into a rage causing 10% additional damage and reducing mana costs of all spells by 20% for 10 sec (down from 18). While enraged, you do not feel pity or remorse or fear and you cannot be stopped unless killed.”

So the changes are:

Duration lowered.
Passive hunter damage buff added.
Now breaks all forms of CC (whatever a PvP trinket breaks, including Sap and Cyclone).

So this actually makes it a considerably interesting CC-breaker. Since now we can BW out of *everything*. that means it's actually increased in flexibility. And it means it's now a 1 minute CD (or less if specced) extra trinket.

Methinks BM is giong to become the spec that you *NEED* to PVP in again. Razz If they don't lengthen the CD for that reason.

Please dear god, don't let them lengthen the CD.
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:47 am

It actually only extends the trinket effect to cyclone and sap. Cyclone I am not so sure about, but sap is not something you would want to waste your offensive trinket on in most circumstances.

It may be good for world PvP and Bg's even (although there you usually get sapped while mounted, but for Arena's it is simply a movement of initiative away from the hunter team.

However you look at it, it cannot be construed as a PvP buff.
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Nordh on Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:44 am

Kurasu, BW is still on a 2 minute cooldown, not 1 minute (-30% with spec).

I thought you could break Sap already with TBW. And didn't they remove the Cyclone being immune to TBW already?

The new talent is seriously overpowered for 1 talent point. It increases your personal dps by 10% all the time, it increases your dps by an extra 10% about 1/8th of the time and also reduces your mana usage by 20% for that period, and on top of that, it makes you completely immune to CC for 1/8th of the time (specced numbers of course).

Name one single talent point that comes even close to that. I honestly would have rather seen that they had spread it out a bit. Given another talent that is less mandatory this extra 10% dps boost, heck, I'd actually think it would be fair to give a multi talent point talent like 2% extra dps for each talent.

I also think it's a dirt cheap way of balancing raid dps. "Hey, let's take a talent every BM hunter uses and give it +% extra dps, then we can just adjust that % based on how far they still are behind".

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:05 am

No apparently sap and cyclone were the only two things that were not affected, but they will be now.

I still don't see this change as a significant buff though, and definitely not if they don't change the mana portion (which GC said he would look into). Most calculations put the net buff at only 1-3% which I would imagine is well below the standard deviation due to RNG.

It feels mightily like a shoddy, ill-considered quick fix to a problem that doesn't even exist. BM is nowhere near being OP in live arena's, most high rated hunter's play SV and there was literally one successful live Beastcleave team.

You are also right that this change makes the talent feel very heavy in the tree, even if it is such a small buff. 1-3% dps on it's own is about right for 2 talent points, but that is just the buff component of this, never mind the other effects and the remaining power of the talents.
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Ground-DH on Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:35 am

Somehow, I don't see the Hunter as the OP toon on the Beastcleave team.

I'm beginning to think Blizzard's methods are as follows:

- Implement
- Watch
- Nerf the successful

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Nordh on Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:21 am

What kind of morphined up calculations would say that this is only a 1-3% buff?

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:44 am

It depends on precisely what the balance between pet/hunter is.

Roughly it is a 6% overall buff (i.e. 10% hunter buff) over the course of a BW cycle (about 1 min 15 secs) at the cost of a roughly 40% nerf for 8 secs (50% less for pet and 10% less for hunter, remembering that the original 10% has already been accounted for above).

There are also incidental nerfs such as decreased uptime with procs,trinkets, incidental buffs and cool downs (i.e. greater chance of getting a proc while BW is not up or BW not being up for the full duration in the case of Rapid fire, the uptime with heroism is also taken down from 45% to 25%). Also note that the set bonuses from the tier 7 2-piece and tier 9 4-piece are also largely negated by this change because it affects the dps balance between pet and master.

The theorycrafting is mostly done with spreadsheets, which I do not use, but all the worked figures I have seen fall in the range that I originally projected.
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Durante on Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:59 am

I've been doing arenas as BM since the first week or two of the last season, and consistently sat around 2000-2150 rating most of last season. From my personal experience this is a hefty nerf in BM PvP, which was clearly the target of this change.

In my 3v3 matches, my pet generally ends up dealing more than half of my damage, and sometimes as much as 75% depending on how hard the other team is trying to train me. Since a large percentage of MM and Survival's damage come from Chimera and Explosive, their proprietary instant cast shots, they deal reduced but meaningful damage. Most of a BM hunter's non-pet damage comes from a casted shot and auto shot, its personal damage really plummets when kiting and pushes the damage balance much further toward the pet. Because of this even with the 10% increase to damage this will likely be a total damage nerf depending on the arena match.

One of the biggest problems I see with the duration being changed from 18 to 10 seconds is how it now interacts with the cooldowns of other classes. For example, Disarm and Dismantle last 10 seconds; if you got disarmed during BW before, you had 8 seconds of full damage still, now you'll have none (you should be using a weapon chain, but the basic point still remains). This is a major issue with many other classes abilities.

Ability Duration Live Difference PTR Difference
Ice Block10+80
Hand of Protection10+80
Barkskin12+6-2
Evasion15+3-5
Divine Shield12+6-2
Pain Suppression8+10+2
Ice Bound Fortitude 12+6-2
Bone Shield10.5+7.5-.5
Shield Wall12+6-2
Enraged Regeneration10+80
Add to that the fact that many of these abilities have baseline cooldowns shorter than the talented and glyphed cooldown of BW, several classes will be able to time their cooldown usage around BW, completely negating the additional burst damage.
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Nordh on Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:52 am

Doug, you're shifting between 1-3% to 6% all the time so I'm seriously not trusting your mathskills at all.

You have to remember that as a hunter there is not a single dps nerf anytime at all. Here's a breakdown.

You get 10% all the time, plus 10% extra for 10 seconds, compared to only 10% for 18 seconds. So, the hunter net increase is 10% for 76 out of every 84 seconds. The last 8 seconds is a 0% decrease/increase. That's a total of 9.04% net increase for the hunter.

The pet gets 0% all the time, but 50% for 10 seconds instead of 18. This means that the pet gets a dps decrease of 5,38%. 1-(100x76+150*8)/100*66+150*18) = 0.0538

At the hunter-pet ratio of 75/25 we will see a net increase of 5,435%.

With a 60/40 hunter pet ratio it is a net increase of 3,904%.

To get as low as 1% only as you mentioned in your example, you'd have to have a hunter pet ratio of about 45/55. That means a pet doing more damage than you.


Last edited by Nordh on Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:22 pm

You are not following the math, cost benefit is not hard.

Start at 10%.
Subtract the pet dps (which is unaffected): result = 6%.
Subtract 45% of pet dps for 8 seconds plus trinket uptimes, set-bonusses, procs etc.: result = 1-3%.
Most theorycrafted solutions using spreadsheets I have seen put the buff at 1-3%.

That's how you get from 10% flat buff to the hunter to a 1-3% net buff to the HUNTER ,with 6% in the middle.

Incidentally, my experience with the spec as well as most BM raiders I have come across suggest the true ratio is 30-50% percent depending on the fight. Again this accords well with the ratio's for the other specs, which may be as high as 15% on certain encounters.

Using a low ratio like 25% is also possible and of course then the buff might be as high as 5%, I don't see how you cannot see that it is the same equation. But even at the upper bound it is not enough to bring BM in line with the other two specs in any real world application.

[Resisting the urge to say something nasty at this point]
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Nordh on Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:05 am

Even with 60/40, which is what you're using as an example, you're still at 3.9% net buff.

You're showing no example of your calcs, you're just referring to spreadsheets. Show us the calcs of the spreadsheets and show me how you can get as low as 1% without your pet doing more dps than you.

You have to remember, that all trinkets and what-not you're referring to will NEVER be weaker after the patch. It can only be stronger, because you as a hunter is never doing less dps after the patch at any time, not within those 8 seconds, not during the 10 seconds and certainly not for the rest of the 64 seconds.

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:46 am

You are double counting the 10%, the question is not whether the hunter is doing more dps, it is whether the hunter plus the pet is doing more dps, and that figure can very easily be below 0%. Of course I am not suggesting it does, but it very well could.

The gross 10% is included at the top as a flat rate this assumes all trinket procs, all effects and every multiplier. In other words, if you never use BW and are doing 100 dps now you should be doing 110 after. The net is obtained by subtracting factors following from the use of BW.

Now assume a 70/30 hunter/pet dps split.

First we must exclude the pets dps since this is not included in the 10%. (not obvious, and I might not have made this clear enough before). [Reduce buff value by 30%, leaving 7%]
The 50% buff to the pet's dps for 8 seconds. [8 seconds is roughly 11.4% of the BW cycle, so we have 11.4%*50%*30%= 1.7%, leaving 5.3%]
Now we must also subtract 10% if the hunter dps for 8 seconds. (this is not the same 10% as the top one) [11.4%*10%*70% = 0.8%]
This leaves 4.5%

Running the same calculation for a 60/40 split yields 3% and for a 50/50 split we get 1.5%.


The remainder is harder to model absolutely, but the additional factors include:

-Reduced uptime with buffs such as Heroism.

-Reduced effect of set bonuses for T7 and 9 2 and 4 piece respectively.

-Reduced uptime with procs such from trinkets, e.g. Greatness.

-Reduced uptime with hunter procs such as IAotH.

-Reduced uptime with pet buffs such as CS, KC and Frenzy. (in the case of KC it is slightly more likely for the 10seconds to run out before the three chrages are used).

-Increased chance of not having BW up for the full duration of on use effects such as Rapid Fire and Trinkets.

-Reduced chance of benefiting from immunity in certain encounters (the daze of the paladin second boss in ToC for example or the cower effect of the last boss in UP).

-Reduced benefit from the mana reduction on BW amounting to an additional 20% cost to all spells for 8seconds. (GC has said they missed this and they would look at increasing the magnitude to up to 50% mana reduction over the new 10seconds but no sign of this is forthcoming as yet).


That's all I can think of now, there may be more though, I put the total value of these follow on effects at roughly 1-2% of overall dps, although this figure can of course be disputed. At a value of 2% and assuming a 50/50 split the change is a flat out nerf, granted an extreme case but not outside the realm of possibility.

Those are calculations, not spreadsheet. Spreadsheet data is a valuable tool but it is intrinsically linear and not very high quality data for theory testing as far as I am concerned. That said... All the people who have done spreadsheets come up with similar numbers, something in the 1-3% range. Why should I redo my theory if it's predictions are accurate? You are trying falsify my theory, excellent, but the burden of falsifying it falls to you I believe.

The difference between a 3% buff and a 4% buff is well below the threshold of statistical and absolute significance so I don't see why you are so intent on proving it one way or another, even 5% is probably not enough to get BM back on it's feet again I'd warrant. Play that off against the virtual destruction of the spec for PvP, which was the intention, and it becomes an overall nerf.
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Nordh on Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:54 am

Of course I'm double counting the 10% for the 10 seconds of uptime, because it gives the hunter 10% EXTRA dps during that time on top of the static 10% boost. The question is if it becomes 120% or 121% (depends on how they stack) during TBW. I calced it as 120% to be safe.

To get a decrease in dps with this change, you would have to have a hunter pet ratio of 35/65 I think. I did calculate that as well, and I think it was around there that the limit was.

You're calculating the buff as being 8 seconds, it's 10 seconds. Perhaps that's why you're getting weird results?

"-Reduced uptime with hunter procs such as IAotH." and "-Increased chance of not having BW up for the full duration of on use effects such as Rapid Fire and Trinkets.", etc...
You calc that as a possible reduction in dps, it can never be a reduction with this new talent compared to the old, EVER. I do agree that RAP procs can get a slight reduction of pet dps, but it's minimal, especially compared to how much you gain from having a constant +10% hunter dps affecting the very same proc on the hunter.

T9 4 set proc will get slightly weaker, but due to the nature of random proc it can happen any time, and saving BW just to get it matched up with the proc isn't feasible in the long run, so it's still counted within the 5.38% less dps from the pet that I showed calcs on earlier.


"At a value of 2% and assuming a 50/50 split the change is a flat out nerf, granted an extreme case but not outside the realm of possibility."

You're just taking those numbers from out of a hat, aren't you? 50/50 split? There are very rare occasions where that would even happen. And how can 2% be a flat out nerf? That's a 2% flat out buff.


I do however agree with your final statement, even if this means a 1% or 5% boost of dps, it would still be way too weak to bring BM back on the table. But, it's also been stated that more stats will be scaling down to the pet, and if that's true, we might see quite a boost there, especially through things like ArP for as long as that's available. They have also stated that raidwide buffs, such as those in the Hodir encounter, will affect the pet. My guess is that any of those buffs that effect the hunter, will also effect the pet. All in all, I think we're looking at some interesting times for BM in the next patch, or next content patch, depending on if they decide to wait a tad bit more with the pet scaling changes.

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Ground-DH on Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:48 pm

Nordh, I think your last paragraph catches the real problem here. They are nerfing something that a hunter would be willing to take a massive DPS hit to get (especially for PvP situations)...but not restoring enough of the DPS hit we took to get it.

Slight buff, or slight nerf (I think actually in PvP and some other scenarios where the hunter is mostly trapping it will end up being the nerf because pet dps will be constant and hunters will drop), either way...it's not the DPS that most BM hunters are going to care about.

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:28 pm

Of course I'm double counting the 10% for the 10 seconds of uptime, because it gives the hunter 10% EXTRA dps during that time on top of the static 10% boost.

That is where you are making the mistake. That 10% would have been there for those 10 seconds irrespective of the change to BW. We are only trying to find out what has changed, anything that stays the same is excluded from the calculation by it's nature.

The 10% buff is independent of the change to BW, and all buffs of this nature are treated additively to my knowledge. In other words the damage is calculated and then 10% is added to the top. When BW is activated 10% is added, bringing the total to 120%. After FI the value is 123%.

If you treat them as dependent the value would indeed become 121% increase from the 10% BW in that 10seconds and adding FI to that give us 124.6%, but as far as I am aware % bonuses are not treated this way by WoW (obviously if it is in this case the numbers would be different).

Because the % changes are additive they are also independent, this means that we have two changes which must be treated seperately:

1) A 10% buff to damage.
2) A nerf to BW of unknown size.

In order to calculate the net effect we first calculate the change in dps resulting from 1), this is fixed at 10% so no more calculations are needed after excluding the pet portion of overall dps. Next we need to calculate the value of the change to BW, this is more complicated and need to be worked out one by one. The net is obtained by subtracting the first from the second.

By your method you are treating the first 10 seconds as a 20% buff, this is incorrect because before the change the value would have been 10% present in any event if you were using BW. So the additional 10% from BW must be discounted.

Since the only change to the BW effect (ignoring the already counted 10% flat buff) is an 8 second reduction we want to know precisely what the value of 8 seconds of BW is and subtract that value from the 10%.

You're just taking those numbers from out of a hat, aren't you? 50/50 split? There are very rare occasions where that would even happen. And how can 2% be a flat out nerf? That's a 2% flat out buff.

I showed exactly how I derived that figure. Working out the top calculation according to a 50/50 split gives a 1.5% net buff (top 10% - change to BW), if you assume the total value of the follow on effects to be 2% of total dps then it would amount to a nerf. This is shown for illustrative purposes, I don't raid as BM and my spec is set up for tanking so I can't tell you exactly what the split will be. However, most sources I have come across put the value at 30-50% and this accords well with my experience in other specs which is why I used that range.

As for the values of the set bonuses there is actually four parts to it:

1) The flat value of the % buff of the T7 set is reduced because the ratio of hunter/pet is affected. This is simply reflecting the fact that the top 10% is not accruing to the pet at all and so the value of 5% as a proportion of overall dps is lower.

Assume a 50/50 split and 100 dps to start with (for the sake of argument). Adding the 5% pet bonus gives us 0.5*0.05= 2.5 dps change. The value of the 5% buff is therefore 2.5% of the overall. Going back to the original state, add in the 10% hunter bonus which will result in a buff of 5 dps or 5% of the overall.

But now assume you already have the 5% pet damage bonus meaning that your overall dps is 102.5, but the 10% hunter bonus still adds only exactly 5 dps, but this is now not 5% of the overall but 4.9%, meaning that the true value of 10% is lower because change in ratios.


Assuming you already have the 10% BW buff and then acquire the T7 the calculation would be run backwards but essentially the same logic applies. Also note that these figures are illustrative only and are intended to reflect absolute values.

2) Similarly the value of the pet AP buff as a proportion of overall dps is lowered.

Assume a 50/50 split and 100 dps to start with (for the sake of argument). Increase the dps of the pet by 1 due to AP = 101 dps and a 49.5/50.5 split. Now increase the hunter portion by 10% or 5 dps giving us a total of 106 dps. The value of that 1 dps (which is unafffected) is now only 0.94% of the total as opposed to 1% and the true value of the 10% buff is reduced by 0.3%.


3) AP and % buffs are dependent and are treated multiplicatively, meaning that we do need to account for the loss of the multiplier in this case. Here the calculation is (8 seconds of dps from 600 pet AP)*(0.5). Note again that the original dps from 600AP is discounted because it would be there irrespective of any changes to BW. We are only subtracting 50% of the additional dps gained from 600 pet AP from the total.

4) The buff from T9 also suffers from an uptime problem, if you got it to proc at the start of BW the bonus would be up for the full duration, with the change it would only be up for 66% of the time reducing it's value by a full third in this instance. Now I am not aware of the proc rates and internal cool downs involved here, but the simple fact that the duration of BW is lowered means that amount of time that both BW and the T9 bonus is up will be reduced even, or especially, if you do not attempt to time the coincidences, so reducing the effectiveness.

I do however agree with your final statement, even if this means a 1% or 5% boost of dps, it would still be way too weak to bring BM back on the table. But, it's also been stated that more stats will be scaling down to the pet, and if that's true, we might see quite a boost there, especially through things like ArP for as long as that's available.

I think that this whole issue highlights exactly why BM is in the state it is in in the first place and why homogenizing pet and hunter stats is long overdue. I hope they do it properly Shocked
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Nordh on Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:00 am

3) AP and % buffs are dependent and are treated multiplicatively, meaning that we do need to account for the loss of the multiplier in this case. Here the calculation is (8 seconds of dps from 600 pet AP)*(0.5). Note again that the original dps from 600AP is discounted because it would be there irrespective of any changes to BW. We are only subtracting 50% of the additional dps gained from 600 pet AP from the total.

I think that there is the problem I have with your calcs, you're assuming the worst case scenarios for your calcs. Yes, for those 8 seconds the pets dps will be 33% lower (not 50% as you're stating) than it is today. BUT those procs doesn't happen during BW uptime every single time today, so you can't calculate it like that. If the procs are completely random, and you don't choose to use BW based on when you get procs, the result doesn't need to take into account any kind of procs.

The reason I say it will be 33% lower rather than 50% lower is because; 100+50 = 50% increase. 150-50 = 33% decrease.


That 10% would have been there for those 10 seconds irrespective of the change to BW.
No, wrong. The 10% would have been there for those _8_ seconds. For the 10 seconds we're doubledipping so to speak. The new uptime is 10 seconds. The loss of uptime is 8 seconds. Your calcs have shown that you're doing the double dipping for 8 seconds instead of 10.

In my calcs I did count the 8 seconds properly, I quote myself:
You get 10% all the time, plus 10% extra for 10 seconds, compared to only 10% for 18 seconds. So, the hunter net increase is 10% for 76 out of every 84 seconds. The last 8 seconds is a 0% decrease/increase. That's a total of 9.04% net increase for the hunter.

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

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