The data-mined Big Red Nerf

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Nordh on Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:46 am

The Beast Within now reduces the mana costs of all spells by 50% for 10sec. (Up from 20%)

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:00 am

The Beast Within now reduces the mana costs of all spells by 50% for 10sec. (Up from 20%)

Yeah, as I said GC said they would fix that, glad they did.

Yes, for those 8 seconds the pets dps will be 33% lower (not 50% as you're stating)

I was careful to not state it in those terms: What I said was that the dps buff is reduced by 50% of the dps gained from 600 AP if the buff is not up when it would have been previously. You are correct that this is a reduction of 33% of the buffed figure.

The principle is the same however you treat it.

The 10% would have been there for those _8_ seconds. For the 10 seconds we're doubledipping so to speak. The new uptime is 10 seconds. The loss of uptime is 8 seconds. Your calcs have shown that you're doing the double dipping for 8 seconds instead of 10.

No I think you are confused here:

Old: Buff for 18 seconds.
New: Buff for 10 seconds.

Remember we are trying to find the difference, and that is after the 8 seconds the initial ten seconds have expired. My calculations show what we lose in the transaction, not what we would have gained before. That means that we count the time when BW would have been up in the past and is not up now, which is 8 seconds.

You get 10% all the time, plus 10% extra for 10 seconds, compared to only 10% for 18 seconds. So, the hunter net increase is 10% for 76 out of every 84 seconds. The last 8 seconds is a 0% decrease/increase. That's a total of 9.04% net increase for the hunter.

The correct cycle for BW is 70.2 seconds I believe, not 84 ,which leads to some of the difference in the numbers here, otherwise our calculations are just different ways of expressing the same thing as far as I can tell.

The other reason you are coming up with a higher figure for the buff is because you are ignoring follow on effects which are multiplicative, as any buff to a stat or anything that changes the balance of pet to hunter would be.

So the two differences are: Your c/d for BW is too long, and you neglect follow on effects.

BUT those procs doesn't happen during BW uptime every single time today, so you can't calculate it like that. If the procs are completely random, and you don't choose to use BW based on when you get procs, the result doesn't need to take into account any kind of procs.

That is why I didn't work them out in full and suggested a total figure of 1-2% I believe. Of course it is possible to work out the statistical likelihoods and figure what the average values are and whatnot but even then not all procs are random so it is hard to tell. What we CAN say though is that the uptime of BW with all procs and effects of this nature will be reduced proportiantely to the reduction in the uptime of the buff.

For some procs the case is even worse because, take greatness for example, if it procs of one of your shot in the first three seconds the entire duration of BW would be under it's effect, but in the new iteration less than 50% of it's duration. That is a nerf of almost 50% to the dps gained from this effect, and that nerf remains all the way until procs after the 10second mark.

Again, it is not always likely that effects like these would coincide, and modelling all of them would be very hard indeed, which is why I gave a rough estimate.

But you DO have to account for them both on the hunter side and the pet side, because they interact with both the pet/hunter ratio and with stats which, again, are dependent.

One final thing though is that this change will be a more substantial buff any time that you wish to withhold dps before a new phase or something, if you are not firing off BW each rotation for whatever reason the buff will be bigger than I have calculated. I do not think this is entirely relevant though because BM does not really struggle under those kind of conditions for various reasons, but what it needs is more top-end raid nuking dps, and so this is what is being modelled.


Last edited by Doug on Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Nordh on Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:46 am

120s - 30% from talent = 84s, not 72. That would mean that Longevity was 40% decrease. How can you even try to justify your math when you don't even know the basics?

Remember we are trying to find the difference, and that is after the 8 seconds the initial ten seconds have expired. My calculations show what we lose in the transaction, not what we would have gained before. That means that we count the time when BW would have been up in the past and is not up now, which is 8 seconds.

The 8 seconds is the only place where there's not a difference compared to before for the hunter since you're gaining the 10% passive bonus. During those 8 seconds we currently have 10% more dps from the buff, while in the future we will have 10% from a passive bonus. For the rest of the 76 seconds we will have 10% more dps than what we currently have.

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:55 am

120s - 30% from talent = 84s, not 72. That would mean that Longevity was 40% decrease. How can you even try to justify your math when you don't even know the basics?

Uhm, the glyph. And 1.17minutes (70.2 seconds) is the c/d taken from the live tooltip. The expected result is also confirmed several times by comments on wowhead on both the glyph and BW itself.

Perhaps we shouldn't be insulting people before we make 100% sure of our own facts?

The 8 seconds is the only place where there's not a difference compared to before for the hunter since you're gaining the 10% passive bonus. During those 8 seconds we currently have 10% more dps from the buff, while in the future we will have 10% from a passive bonus. For the rest of the 76 seconds we will have 10% more dps than what we currently have.

As I mentioned above our calculation are actually roughly the same in principle and comes to roughly the same result.

I do not agree with your method as it overly complicates a simple concept, but then you would likely say the same about mine.

Again:

Gain/loss from new iteration
Less
Gain/loss from old iteration
Equals
Net buff/nerf

After the 10% flat buff the 10seconds at the start is the same for both so they amount to zero and neither is dependent on the other 10% buff. So we can re-phrase:

10% buff to hunter (expressed as % of total dps)
Less
8 seconds of BW uptime
Equals
Net buff/nerf

If you want to test it experimentally you can go to a target dummy and do a whole bunch of runs with BW and a whole bunch not using it. Note the difference, multiply the difference by 40% to see what effect the change to the BW uptime has. Only problem is raid buffs which will effect both the 10% hunter buff and the effect of BW for 8 seconds.
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Nordh on Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:30 pm

I had completely forgotten that there's a BW glyph making it 70 second CD. Have been raiding as Surv =( in the last few weeks so I'm a bit out of the BM game I admit.

That means a bit more of an off balance in net gain. I'd have to redo the calcs for that. Still don't get your system. I prefer a bit more direct calcs.

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:05 pm

From what I can see it amounts to exactly the same thing, I tried to find differences but it all matches it seems.

I think that is a problem a lot of us have, very few people are raiding as BM nowadays, and most that I have run into don't care overmuch for cranking out dps.

I am loathe to switch my tanking spec to a dps spec at this time to try it because I just spent a small fortune on gems, but I still think this change is not really dramatic enough to put the spec on par with SV/MM for raiding and things will stay largely the the except that the PvP utility is removed.

And the funny thing?

The beastcleave comp is not doing well in arenas at all and most teams have learnt to get around already.
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Nordh on Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:43 am

Intimidation and Kill Command
I can't go into detail on all of them, but for starters Intimidation could be a lot better and Kill Command could be as fun as say Lock and Load instead of a macro'd ability.

I'm not sure if I should be worried or not. From what it sounds like, KC will be a more hunter specific dps addition.
Intimidation though... the only thing I can think of is making it instant instead of "on next attack", and boosting threat. It is after all very lackluster in the threat generation department nowadays. The name doesn't really fit any longer.

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:08 am

I'm at a loss as to which direction they are going into with all this to be honest, the worrying thing is it doesn't look they they know either.

Most of the time when GC posts about hunters it is either inane, not helpful or just plain bizarre. Lock and Load is not a fun ability as far as I am concerned (it stopped being fun when they made it entirely RNG dependent), they should just put it on the GCD and revert it to it's older form if fun is what they want.

Intimidation, like the rest, could be great or awful...
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Ihlos on Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:29 am

LOL at lock and load being a fun ability.

The idea of it was fun, the name is fun. The ability is not fun.

And wasnt the last change supposed to make kill command not just another 'macro'd ability? What happened there?
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:27 am

And wasnt the last change supposed to make kill command not just another 'macro'd ability? What happened there?

They made it into just another macro'd ability is what happened.

At least in the previous iteration there was some fun to it, I actually left it un-macroed precisely because it injected a bit of excitement into the steady shot spam dullness. Now...
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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Nordh on Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:16 am

I think the proc of L&L is fun, but not getting it to proc. It really means to rethink shot priority and time the ES:s right. L&L would be so much better with a 100% chance of proccing at the end or beginning of traps/BA.

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Re: The data-mined Big Red Nerf

Post  Doug on Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:37 am

I agree, I was a big fan of trap dancing and sorry to see it go. It was very dynamic, which I like.

RNG procs? Not so much.
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