Threat aspect

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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Doug on Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:09 am

Did some further testing on AP scaling.

This time I did one of the mobs with AotC and the other with AotH giving a 390 AP difference. Both mobs were lvl 79 this time increasing the effective crit/hit rate of the pet (after going a number of times you get 'You have entered to many instances recently). TS was on but I used no other threat abilities, except mend pet, and did not attack for CS.

The TPS difference here was around 200 meaning that you get around 2threat per point of AP.

I will now run the test with 2/2 spiked collar

Very interesting! It definitely appears that these numbers are somewhat lower than the SB test. Looks like around 50 TPS. This leaves the only confounding issue the increased damage from crits, but if pet crits are 100% bonus damage it will make no difference, leaving SB a clear winner.

Could someone repeat these tests, perhaps in a different environment to see if I made a booboo?
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Doug on Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:24 am

A bit more detail on this:

I was concerned that Initmidation might scale with AP but it appears it is a flat 1.9k threat or so, no change there.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Doug on Sun May 03, 2009 11:21 am

And some more...

I finally managed to get Percival the croc up to 80 and it appears that with snap-back the best aspect is still Hawk. I though that Beast might have the edge here but it may still with really fast-hitting mobs.

Unfortunately I can't really say for sure whether Spiked Collar or Silverback is better for AoE threat here but it looks like Spiked Collar will win out. Unfortunately the croc just dies too quickly even with 2/2 SB to get an Accurate reading. The Stalker can hold the starting pair in HoL indefinitely, but the croc dies after a matter of seconds rather than minutes.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Kurasu on Mon May 04, 2009 6:23 am

Doug wrote:The Stalker can hold the starting pair in HoL indefinitely, but the croc dies after a matter of seconds rather than minutes.

Is this because of the difference Warp makes? I'm assuming so, since I can't think of anything else it *could* be, but wanted to be sure, if you can tell at all.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Doug on Mon May 04, 2009 8:28 am

Yes, a couple of misses coupled with the extra point in S/B seems to make the world of difference. Even with 2/2 SB the Croc doesn't survive very long.

On the other hand it might have been RNG, didn't notice that much of a difference on the following three pull in which the WS and the Croc both died just before the tactician.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  bigfootzz on Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:47 am

Ive been having issues with my pets threat as well. I got rid of SB to go full SC and even put a point in cobra reflexs which helps out but with all the stam gear and gems I dont have enough TPS to hold aggro well enough. Im at 28k hp and my pet sits at rougly 24k with scoll buffs. Should I lower my stam a bit and relay on group buffs to fill in the gaps?

Ed
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Doug on Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:21 am

You can refer to my other thread about the relative merits of SB vs. SC in the theorycraft section, suffice to say it is not as simple an equation as it might appear.

With the new buf setup I find it's great top have might on me and sanc on the pet with kings and GotW as a given. Might REALLY makes a big difference when it comes to threat, I continue to believe that pet dps itself is not really worth investing in from a threat perspective unless it is either through your AP or pet damage as a percentage.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  bigfootzz on Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:07 pm

Well I changed out the good ole FR gear with lots of stam for my old dps gear and my pets TPS couldnt be better. Its a mix of 4 pvp items for stam and resil gemed with ap and hit. Im hit caped have a bit of expertise for good measure now I have to try to enchant or gem what ever I can to get stam back Im down to just above 24k hp unbuffed. Whats a good target lvl to hit. I always figured I should try to get my pet to at least 25k unbuffed but doesnt seem like I can do it with out giving up other stats I need more.

Ed
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Kheldul on Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:19 am

It all depends on what you're trying to tank.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Virge on Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:46 am

When i got 4-set tier 9 i re-gemmed my old 8.5 for tanking, due to the added AP, which made things easier to handle threat-wise but im still not too comfortable with the TPS+MD. Im at around 4.3k AP and while my pet can hold aggro for a time theres a point where my MD is on CD and the dps are croaching nearer and nearer so i guess i'll have to raise my AP little by little untill i meet up with the MD CD >_O. As said above me how much hp you want to aim for depends on what youre doing, which can be hard to judge (i once peaked at like 32-33k *unbuffed* but my TPS barely registered, making it very much useless - i now try to balance it more and hit 36-37k buffed instead). Hmm, if you have or know a tank, ask or think back when you first started doing heroics and what HP felt solid then, that should be a practical goal, and raise AP accordingly.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Kurasu on Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:55 pm

I'm running about the same, and I can say for sure that sacrificing threat for survivability is not worth it as I tried a full 100% stamina build and... ugh. Don't. Just don't. One shot and your mages pull aggro no matter how many thunderstomps you're allowed first. While we don't want our pets to go 'squish', more important is making sure they can't pull aggro. At least when it comes to bosses. Very Happy
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Doug on Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:45 pm

That 36k mark seems the correct one to me, less than than and pet goes squish, more than that and you have zero threat.

I think Durante manages more stam because he does arenas, my gear is all honor bought and conquest badges and PvE off-cuts. I am trying out a premade on the PTR now though, just to see what the potential is.

Chances are it will just depress me about my gear though hehe.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Kurasu on Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:30 am

Doug wrote:I think Durante manages more stam because he does arenas

Actually, Durante gets a *BIG* stamina boost from the fact he's JC/LW profession. Both of them have an impressive stamina boost in their profession-only area, and the two together get quite intimidating. The arena is part of it, but, and I say this with all adoration, a lot of it could be gotten through VoA runs and some frost res gear.

Not *all* of it, indeed, but I think a lot of it.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Doug on Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:52 am

True, but I think Durante does Arena anyhow don't you? Of course the JC helps a ton too I didn't think of that.

Sadly the PTR premade hunters are worthless, they don't come with gems or enchants like the other classes do, bit of a ripoff because a whole bag is full of bullets/arrows. Also the pets are less than stellar.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Durante on Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:26 am

Kurasu wrote:Actually, Durante gets a *BIG* stamina boost from the fact he's JC/LW profession. Both of them have an impressive stamina boost in their profession-only area, and the two together get quite intimidating. The arena is part of it, but, and I say this with all adoration, a lot of it could be gotten through VoA runs and some frost res gear.

Not *all* of it, indeed, but I think a lot of it.

This is pretty close to on the money. I dropped skinning and power leveled JC just so I'd have a second profession that would allow me to have stamina when I wanted to tank and DPS stats when I wanted to DPS. Sadly though I have terrible VoA luck. I ran VoA every week since hitting 80 (only the 3rd or 4th 80 hunter on the server too) until early October and I never got a single arena piece. Other than the trinkets, pretty much everything I wear is arena or frost resist, I really like the balance of stats you get from the PvP gear. I haven't been able to do much arena this season though, I actually haven't had an active account for a couple weeks (new job madness) so my gear is a bit out of date at this point.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Doug on Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:28 pm

I think your out of date Arena gear still tops my up to date honor gear lol, but
i have replaced a good deal of things with PvE gear as well (I am using my Scourgestalker head piece for tanking now for example).

I actually try to do exactly what Virge suggested: keep around the 36k, seems to be a magic number of some sort for me at least.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Kurasu on Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:05 am

I used to be our guild's only raiding hunter (well, one of three, though two of them were only occasional or idle). We also had no(!) feral druids for a while; just restos and Boomkin. So when it came to hunter gear, I got my pick for the most part. Smile It means that I had a fair pick of raiding gear that I could 'save from boom' by making into tanking gear, and often did. It gave me a fairly solid split of PVP and PVE gear in my tanking set, which means I can settle comfortably on that 'magic number' more easily.

For the record, my masochistic self has to say that there's no feeling in the world like talking to a leatherworking friend about buying a Crusader's Dragonscale Breastplate for tanking. The utter *horror* in the reaction was priceless. But for someone who doesn't do arena, the breastplate was more accessible than the PVP chest. Just pleeeeenty of dailies and a few rounds of heavy farming.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  bigfootzz on Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:11 am

Last night I tanked H Nexus with a druids thorn buff and a pallys ret aura an dlet me tell you it made a huge difference multi tanking. By the time the skull was dead I had 15K or more threat on the other mobs my pet was holding plenty for the group to go "all out" on trash with out worrying about them pulling. I highly suggest everyone try to bring a pally and druid to there runs =)

ed
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  bigfootzz on Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:22 am

I finally got up to 291 resil which seems to make my pet crit immuned or at least so low that it bearly gets it. I still have 4 peices of my T9 for the set bonus.

Currently Im sitting at 27k hp unbuffed 4k ap 10k armor. Now the issues Im having is I have been reading alot of guys saying there at 30k plus hp but I cant figure out how to do that with out losing much needed ap. Should I get a second T9 set and gem with just stam in order to increase my hp or should I look in other areas.

My goal is 30k hp unbuffed and 4.5k ap wich may be unreachable

my armory link is In my tank gear

ed
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Doug on Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:21 am

You only need 183 resil now:) I would personally aim for a touch more stam berore prioritising AP quite so much, having only 30k HP doesn't give much of a buffer in heroics for when things go south.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Durante on Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:38 am

30k unbuffed is enough as long as you're able to be selective when putting your group together. I always try to include the four health buffing classes (priest, paladin, druid, warrior) as often as possible so that I have as much HP as is achievable, and perhaps even wear a little extra AP.

Also if you're a leatherworker you can provide your own Kings and druid buff, although they're not quite as good as the originals. What this does do is free up the druid position and allows the paladin to give you and your pet Might for a very healthy chunk of AP.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  Kurasu on Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:51 am

Doug wrote:You only need 183 resil now:) I would personally aim for a touch more stam berore prioritising AP quite so much, having only 30k HP doesn't give much of a buffer in heroics for when things go south.

Well, I'm going to raise my hand and argue here: 30k *unbuffed* in heroics isn't terrible. Panzer was tanking in Naxx with a lot lower than 30k unbuffed. The newer heroics, you're going to want more, but 30k unbuffed isn't a bad number to aim for. We've had a tank do TotC10-man with less than 30k unbuffed, after all! I won't call it *fun*, but the whole 'you need 35k unbuffed to do *anything*' is not that reasonable, IMO.

Mind you, you want high stamina to keep things from going south, yes. Very Happy So while you might not *need* to shoot for it, I'm damned well still going to shoot for it!

However, getting 30k unbuffed *and* over 4k AP is, unfortunately, an unreasonable number IMO. Panzer right now is sitting at exactly 29k unbuffed (well, 29012) and I'm in full stamina gems, other than one tear to activate my meta (I felt the extra stats would do more for me than +5 stamina, even in tanking). Now, I'm also wearing a lot of PvE gear in my tanking slots instead of PvP stuff, so I'm not as high there as I could be. In addition, I'm neither LW nor JC, although don't think I haven't considered switching. The main reason I haven't? Extensive collection of Alchemy and Enchanting recipes.
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Re: Threat aspect

Post  justreplica on Thu May 19, 2011 8:11 pm

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